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Benvenuti a tutti! Today on San Marino Conversations, we are honored to welcome Paolo Rondelli, the enclave’s first ambassador to the United States!

Rondelli has lived a fascinating life, as his Wikipedia page indicates — just for instance, for six months last year he served as one of two S.M.’s Captains Regent, becoming the first and only openly gay head of state in the modern era — and today he’s here to tell the Outpost’s John Kennedy O’Connor (on assignment) about the diplomatic life, San Marino’s role on the international stage, and whether or not he regrets getting out of dodge before President Donald Trump made the scene.

Video above, rough machine transcript below.

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JOHN KENNEDY O’CONNOR:

Well, welcome to another San Marino Conversation — not a Humboldt conversation today — and I’m very pleased to say that we’re joined today by Paolo Rondelli. Did I get that right? Because I have a terrible Italian accent.

PAOLO RONDELLI:

No, no, no, that’s perfect.

O’CONNOR:

And Paolo used to be the ambassador for San Marino to the United States. Right. Which I think is fascinating, the idea that this very small micro-state has such a wonderful representation in the international scene. How does this come about?

RONDELLI:

Well, first of all, I have to underline the fact that I was the first ambassador to the U.S. So, one of my duties was also to open an embassy, a chancery in Washington, D.C. So, it was something very big for a small country, but for each country, but for a small country it’s a little bit more. So, it was absolutely great. What year was that?

O’CONNOR:

What year was that?

RONDELLI:

2007. So I started with my tenure in 2007, presenting my letter of credence to President Bush. So I spent the last year and a half under his presidency and then I spent eight more years as ambassador to the US with the Obama administration. So I finished my tenure October 31st, 2016. So just four days before the election, the presidential elections to move in Paris as permanent representative to UNESCO for UN environment. So this wonderful agency talking about cultures, scientific issues and things like that. But well, Washington DC was a wonderful period, was really a wonderful period because it was a way to build something up, was the beginning of the relationship between our two countries and on a level of diplomatic representation until that year, until 2007, we were on a consular level only. So we started and was a big adventure to me. So it was really beautiful.

O’CONNOR:

Great. Now why was the US chosen to be one of the initial embassies for Samaritan? Because there aren’t very many, are there, around the world?

RONDELLI:

No, first of all, we have an embassy in Rome, we have more than one embassy in Rome because we have Italy, Holy See and Food and Agriculture Organization and all the international organizations. So we have more than one embassy, we have two ambassadors in Rome. That is since decades. After that we opened UN in New York and some others. At present we have very few stable embassies, so full-time open embassies. Obviously US and UN in New York. Vienna. I have met the ambassador in Austria. Elena. Yes. She is great. Then we have Brussels for the EU. Yes, exactly. Brussels has been open for many years.

O’CONNOR:

That’s an interesting relationship because San Marino is not in the EU technically, but in effect you are.

RONDELLI:

It’s a little bit more complex. So we are not part of the European Union but we have an agreement, a cooperation agreement since 1991 and on an economical level and on some specific items like food and agriculture. So then we are part of the Schengen territory.

O’CONNOR:

But you also use the euro.

RONDELLI:

We use the euro since the very beginning due to an agreement, a specific agreement. And we have our own euros so we are able to produce euros too. But we are not EU members. We are under a negotiation of a treaty for not a full adhesion but a kind of association agreement. So we will remain a third part but with some specific duties and some specific obligations, specific I think points in favor.

O’CONNOR:

Now your role in the US, I’m fascinated, I mean the US is one of the largest countries in the world, one of the top 10. Here’s San Marino which I believe is the fourth smallest, is that correct? Or the fourth smallest in Europe?

RONDELLI:

The third.

O’CONNOR:

The third, there you go. What is the role, I mean, how do you interact with this monolithic government and this monolith of the United Nations? Although I know that wasn’t your role, but they’re being combined now.

RONDELLI:

Obviously, being an ambassador of a small country and being our representation there, it’s more than very big embassies like United Kingdom or France with a lot of diplomats. I was at the very beginning the only one, the only diplomat in the US, so you have to walk a lot, buy a certain number of shoes because you have to walk a lot, knock a lot of doors and trying to introduce yourself, to introduce your country that no one knows, but it’s quite important to be on the scene. I remember I had a wonderful professional relationship with a colleague, she was the ambassador of Liechtenstein, another micro-state in Europe, so we were facing more or less the same problems. When you are alone in the Soviet countries, obviously your government has to give you some specific mandates on some specific issues because you can’t face all the arguments. The week is just seven days or more.

O’CONNOR:

I just need to ask, was it disappointing not to be part of the Trump administration? Or did you think, thank goodness I got out before it was too late?

RONDELLI:

Obviously, as an ambassador…

O’CONNOR:

You have no opinion.

RONDELLI:

No opinion. But I was happy to move to Paris after nine years and a half in the US. So I moved to Paris for three years as ambassador and permanent representative to UNESCO. It was really nice, Paris too. So obviously I have part of my family based in New York so I’m still quite often in the US. I have friends there so I’m traveling and I touched also the Trump administration.

O’CONNOR:

Paolo, it’s been lovely to meet you. It’s really interesting to know about how this tiny country interacts with the wider world. It’s really genuinely fascinating. Thank you for joining us in San Marino for a San Marino Conversation. And thank you for joining us and hopefully join us for more San Marino Conversations this week. Bye-bye.

RONDELLI:

Cheers!